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Topic: Strange Rituals in the Fields
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Strange Rituals in the Fields by Not Required
Date: 14/11/2007 Time: 09:44:27
A point of importance is that the pupils have no choice but to accept the homeopathic medicines, and I disagree with Infidel in that I object to there being no choice but to pay a proportion of local tax on organisations which have (at the very least) some extremely questionable principles. It all appears very subversive, unaccountable and would seem to be little more than a cult. Interesting programme on Channel 5 last night about a cult, topical in that the anniversary of this 'event' is nearly upon us. November 18th 1978 (I think).

>> Tagged as: News - Local


Strange Rituals in the Fields by Infidel
Date: 14/11/2007 Time: 18:34:28
Box Boy, 'Modern' can mean many things including bolting-on bits of other belief systems. My use of quotes is to distinguish from abrahamic ('archaic') religions. The archaic religions have a long history of control and so are difficult to counter. Modern on the other hand are more easily labelled 'cult' and dismissable. Neither modern nor archaic religions are worthy of full support or full dismissal.

'Do some google research on Steiner links to the Nazis...quite well debated around the net. '

One should be careful to avoid 'agenda surfing' - seek and yea shall find, you 'prove' what you are looking to prove.

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Strange Rituals in the Fields by Infidel
Date: 14/11/2007 Time: 18:38:48
NR:

'A point of importance is that the pupils have no choice but to accept the homeopathic medicines, '

Since when do or should pupils have a choice about how they are educated ?

'and I disagree with Infidel in that I object to there being no choice but to pay a proportion of local tax on organisations which have (at the very least) some extremely questionable principles. '

That's 'democracy' for you.

'It all appears very subversive, unaccountable and would seem to be little more than a cult. '

Appearances can be deceptive. How do they manage to exist and be funded by the poor taxpayer ?

'Interesting programme on Channel 5 last night ...'

That'll be channel sleeze (or is that title now reserved for channelBB ?

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Strange Rituals in the Fields by Infidel
Date: 14/11/2007 Time: 18:49:32
Ah, Sinnikal . . . It may take a few posts.

'OK Infidel, in the friendliest way, we lock horns again'

OK, BBGG

'If you would kindly point out my 'knee-jerk reaction to that which I fail to understand' I will do my very best to explain my position.'

Tricky, without the posts reverting to 'quick-fire' rebuttal laced with agenda-surfing. I'll get back to you, once I've had a bite to eat

'I try, at all times, to not have any sort of reaction, knee-jerk or otherwise, to stuff that I haven't made at least some effort to understand'

Mmm, I'm sure that you can dig out some 'proof' to legitimise your pre-formed opinion... The 'devil' is in the detail and this will take some time and effort to address.

'Yet again, I am single-handedly, and hypocritically, destroying the planet with unnecessary carbon emissions, ...'

Slightly 'irrational' behaviour, eh ? Verging on 'woo' ?

'so excuse any tardiness, or peculiar posting times in my response'

Tardiness is more productive than reactionary repostes

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Strange Rituals in the Fields by Not Required
Date: 14/11/2007 Time: 19:29:04

Quotation:
Appearances can be deceptive. How do they manage to exist and be funded by the poor taxpayer ?

Quite. Valid question. Maybe the regulatory body(ies) are either blissfully unaware or are not doing their jobs.

>> Tagged as: News - Local


Strange Rituals in the Fields by Cowardly Not Required
Date: 14/11/2007 Time: 23:05:29
Or, possibly, they are acting within the law?

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Strange Rituals in the Fields by Box Boy
Date: 15/11/2007 Time: 00:51:08

Quotation:
Or, possibly, they are acting within the law?

There is a significant difference between 'acting within the law' and 'having sufficient charitable funds to employ top London lawyers to confuse and confute any legal issue to the extent that it becomes uneconomic to pursue them.'

Having several years' experience of the organisation concerned, I know which statement is the more correct.

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Strange Rituals in the Fields by -
Date: 15/11/2007 Time: 14:17:37
Due to the large volume of complaints about the organisation a team has been put together to deal with these complaints.

I suggest that you direct your complaints to the investigations team who can be contacted on 0138648134 or to Ofsted on 084564400.

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Strange Rituals in the Fields by Not Required
Date: 15/11/2007 Time: 16:39:45
The numbers are incorrect. Ofsted was easy enough to look up, but please post the correct number of the first organisation along with who they are.

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Strange Rituals in the Fields by Not Required
Date: 15/11/2007 Time: 20:23:20
Looks a little odd 'a team has been set up'....by whom, and reporting to who?

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Strange Rituals in the Fields by Infidel
Date: 15/11/2007 Time: 21:22:50
Sinikal:

'If you would kindly point out my 'knee-jerk reaction to that which I fail to understand' I will do my very best to explain my position.'

Apologies for my tardiness, it was a big bite . Actually, I have been trying hard to formulate my response to adequately address your request while conveying my 'message'. As I have said before, Sinn, you are formidable and I don't wish to degenerate the discussion. On much we agree, but in my opinion you tend toward a 'fundamentalist' approach which tends to miss out on so much detail.

'Science' is built on ignorance (as opposed to religion which is ignorant). To qualify: science says we have learnt but equally have much to learn. Religion, on the other hand, has a story which is fixed - there is (apparently) nothing to learn beyond the story (which has been laid down centuries ago and far from being imutable is a victim of its own time). Religion, currently, has no relevance beyond individual sense of security (in an increasingly complex world).

On R4 J.Porritt (I nickname GodPorritt as some seem to 'worship' him and his anouncements (my PhD supervisor for one), I'm tempted to refer to GodDawkins for similar reasons - reason, geddit ?) presents an interesting look at 'seeds'. Inevitably, after looking at seedbanks, the subject of GMOs came up. On the face of it (interesting phrase - ignore looking any deeper) GMOs 'promise' addressing the twin problems of feeding the world (well, the humans anyway) while minimising the pollution associated with modern, industrialised agro-culture, laudable aims. However, . . . what of the 'fallout' of factors/influence which we have yet to fully appreciate ? We'll come back to that later - literally, as with industrialisation which has given us great things but only now do we start to fully appreciate the damage (fallout) caused by how we did it. Science, don't you love it ? It gives us great things, including knowledge/understanding, allows us to 'solve' problems but at the same time creates other problems which we then have to try and understand and solve, leading to more problems (?). OK, we shouldn't give up, happy as larry, with a simplistic 'hair shirt' or even religious outlook. No, we have to grasp the nettle and try harder to understand what we do and its other effects.

What has this to do with 'woo' and why the 'knee-jerk' charge ? Simply, that science enables understanding but carries risk which we have to address. Dismissing something which we have yet to understand, because we see potential or actual damage is like not opening the stable door coz the horse could bolt, even tho' there is pasture beyond the door. Dismissal of 'woo' is complicated (woo medicine, for instance, is many and varied with some more irrational than others, with different value and risks too). To, simply, shout 'woo' is to say 'I don't need to attempt to understand'.

I know that the 'scientific method' is a key weapon in the armoury of the anti-woo, but 'double-blind' is blind as it says address my idea of proof (like religion says address my idea of the story). As with GMOs, there is much that we do not fully understand.

Science can not, by definition as it is based on dispelling ignorance (which will always exist) understand/describe everything. It just enables us to increase our understanding. Science can prove something but it can not disprove something, as there are too many variables which are ignored (deliberately or accidntally, to enable an easy result).

Sorry for the waffle, but I hope that you get some of the 'nuance' or gist.

Incidentally, the topic title implies ignorance (non-understanding) of something observed but the topic has veered into dismissal based on pre-conceived notions (with a fair sprinkling of webproof), perpetuating ignorance rather than illumination.

>> Tagged as: News - Local


Strange Rituals in the Fields by Sinnikal
Date: 15/11/2007 Time: 23:46:35
Thanks for taking the time to explain. I'm now getting closer to seeing where our paths diverge.

It'll take me a while to formulate an adequate reply, not least because I'm about to get stuck into the new (for brit audiences) series of CSI and Sara Sidle is about to depart, so that has to take priority

L8r

>> Tagged as: News - Local


Strange Rituals in the Fields by Not Required
Date: 16/11/2007 Time: 11:03:49
Well the first number given appears to be a painter in Evesham! Another red herring from the world of spin and deceit.

>> Tagged as: News - Local


Strange Rituals in the Fields by Not Required
Date: 16/11/2007 Time: 14:18:08
Big changes afoot at the horror charity.......

>> Tagged as: News - Local


Strange Rituals in the Fields by Sinnikal
Date: 16/11/2007 Time: 23:25:30
Infidel, while I compose my reply to your last post, it has been brought to my attention that one of my 'heroes', Dr. Ben Goldacre, has just published a damning essay on why homeopathy is such a bunch of dross, and why homeopaths are such quacks. The real problem is that scientists understand homeopathy so much better than the woo merchants.

I have to say that Ben says exactly what I would say, except much, much better and more concisely.

You see, to my mind, homeopaths have now begun to believe their own hype, and are starting to talk about 'curing' AIDS with homeopathy, and using it as prophylaxis against malaria.

The truth is that they would never get ethical approval for a proper test of their remedies, so if they are so convinced of the efficacy, why don't they do what early medical pioneers did? Infect themselves with HIV, and fly off to malarial areas, then treat themselves with their own remedies? What have we got to lose except a few deluded homeopaths?

The article also explains clearly what 'double-blind testing' means, I think you may have a slight misunderstanding of the principle.

Ben explains it all so much better than I could, please read it.

http://www.badscience.net/2007/11/a-kind-of-magic/

>> Tagged as: News - Local

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